Episode 1 :: Ai-jen Poo

Why changing hearts is more important than changing minds

Back to: The Green Room Podcast

(00:00):
Courtney: My biggest takeaway is how much those of us who talk about the importance of changing hearts and minds are mainly working in the realm of changing minds and less hearts. And that what the muscle that we really need to build is really around hearts and how to reach into and navigate our emotional landscape as humans.

(00:29):
Courtney: Welcome to the Green Room where we learn from some of the world’s most transformational advocates about how they flip the script. I’m your host, Courtney Martin. Today we’re talking to Ai-jen Poo who has been changing the conversation on care from every single angle for as long as I can remember. She’s just as likely to be in the White House Rose Garden, celebrating a policy victory as she is to be seen on the red carpet alongside some of Hollywood’s biggest celebrities. She’s an author, a MacArthur genius, a TED Speaker founder of the National Domestic Workers Alliance and carrying across generations. And honestly guys, she is one of the most deeply wise, relational and tenacious human beings I have ever known. Take a listen. My first question is kind of a weird one, but I noticed it in your bio and it’s something we’ve never talked about, which is that your parents were scientists, and so it made me very curious who was the first community organizer you ever met? How did you become aware of community organizing and how did the idea of doing culture change come into your consciousness?

(01:45):
Ai-jen: Community organizing probably was introduced to me when I was a student in college at Columbia and I was volunteering. I really wanted to be connected to the Asian community in New York City, and it was some of the older, more seasoned activists in the community that I think introduced me to the idea of organizing. But it wasn’t until a lot later that I started to think about narrative change at kind of a deeper cultural level. It wasn’t until organizing domestic workers in New York where we actually started out doing policy campaigns to try to change the laws to make sure that domestic workers were protected. And it occurred to us at a certain point that we could probably change laws forever and not change the way people think and feel about domestic work. And that the goal of changing how people feel about domestic work and what kinds of work should be valued and protected and respected, that work to change how we feel about things and people was a different kind of work than changing policy and that it was about changing people in a deeply emotional way.

(03:28):
Ai-jen: And so we set out to try to understand how to do that. But yeah, so I’ve learned a lot along the way, and I think my biggest takeaway is how much those of us who talk about the importance of changing hearts and minds are mainly working in the realm of changing minds and less hearts interesting. And that what the muscle that we really need to build is really around hearts and how to reach into and navigate our emotional landscape as humans and how to connect in that way with people and to do so at scale.

(04:13):
Courtney: Is that the shift from trying to change minds, to change hearts? Something you’ve noticed in your own leadership? Was there a moment where you kind of got stuck and you were like, oh, because I am making this an intellectual argument over and over and I need to drop into the heart of it?

(04:31):
Ai-jen: Yeah, absolutely. I think it used to be we needed research data, really smart arguments and then political power behind those arguments and that data. And I think we do need those things and it is often not sufficient because, okay, so there’s factually true and then there’s emotionally true

(05:08):
And they’re not the same thing. And it took me a while to kind of sort that out and the recognition that both truths are profoundly powerful in shaping our decisions, our behaviors, our actions, our choices, and that if we only exist in the realm of facts and those factual truths, we miss a whole terrain of decision-making and power that is conscious and unconscious, but is profoundly determinative of what happens in the world and that people make meaning of the world through their emotional lives in addition to their rational lives, and that we can’t be afraid of that. In fact, we just have to embrace it.

(06:10):
Courtney: When I watch you moving through the world, you’re at the White House and then you’re at a state meeting, and then you’re at a labor meeting, and then you’re on the red carpet at Hollywood trying to leverage some big cultural moment where you think we could talk about care work differently. So do you think about it as all of it all at once, just like you keep moving through these different spaces, or is there any kind of linear idea in your head, like a progression of like, we have to get this locked in and this policy locked in and then we’re going to work on the culture piece, or we got to get the culture first. It’s not worth fighting for this policy till we get the culture piece done?

(06:50):
Ai-jen: I think it’s about thinking about it as almost like a braided strategy where in my mind really effective movements have explicit strategies and capacities that are about contending for power on multiple fronts. One is political power with a little like the power to change policy and who makes it is how I define political power. And then there’s what I call narrative power, which is the power to define reality essentially to help people make meaning of the world. And that narrative power has a very different infrastructure set of capacities, set of influencers, set of tools and skills that are quite different from changing policy and changing politics or at least changing who makes policies. And I mean, it’s all politics, it’s all narrative, but you kind of see what I’m saying from the perspective of actual capacity building. And to me, successful movements are moving on all fronts, really trying to build the muscle around telling the story of why things are the way that they are in the world on our terms and powering. For me, my movement has been about powering the story of care as essential, as valuable as infrastructure, as the most fundamental aspect of society that should be prioritized as a collective social good.

(08:48):
Ai-jen: And the more power we build behind that story, I think the easier it will be to pass policy and have it be durable. Ultimately, what we’re trying to do is get these policies and practices embodied by people, humans, which means that we do actually have to reach in and help people embody the change, which is a narrative and cultural project as much as it is anything else.

(09:21):
Courtney: Do you also experience your days as being organized in that braid? You’re just constantly being pulled into things. Do you on a given day think like, okay, what’s the braid today? Am I doing enough policy? Am I doing enough culture? Who am I bringing along with me? I mean, I just can’t imagine the decision matrix that you must have to think these things through with,

(09:51):
Ai-jen: Wow, I wish it was so systematic. I guess that’s the goal. I would say that what’s lovely about it is that I never feel like I never feel bored. I never feel stagnant. I’m constantly learning and the ability to leverage what I know about change through the policy arena into what I’m learning about change in the cultural arena and the other way around is so fun and interesting. And the people that I meet in every arena are so amazing. What I love about working with artists and storytellers is they live in that messy emotional terrain and landscape that is their terrain, and it’s like having a fearless guide into the unknown. And so then there is an expertise that artists bring to navigating people’s emotional lives that I find to be fascinating. And so being able to work with artists and think about what they’re bringing to the understanding of humanity and how people make meaning and what touches people to be able to then connect that to an actual strategy to win investments in childcare and home care is just so fun. I love that. Yeah. I think it’s like, and then the other way around, just watching how elected officials have learned how to share their personal care stories through the culture and story-driven work that we do as a campaign has been so moving, and I think that it’s been transformative for them to be able to bring their whole stories into who they are as leaders and then connect that to actual policy and systems change in this deeply emotional way, I think is also just watching all of that happen is so fun and nourishing. For me.

(12:36):
Courtney: I love this answer because I think I would’ve imagined someone operating at the level you’re operating at would have just a very complex, rigid kind of decision matrix, and it said, it’s like it’s about fun and it’s about fascination. I just hear how fascinated you are by these spaces you get to be in and what you witness in other people and curiosity and what could be a better decision matrix than that. Is it fun? Is it interesting? But how do you keep pushing yourself into spaces where people don’t know about care and the way you want them to and really keep making the tent bigger and bigger?

(13:20):
Ai-jen: I have to say, I feel so lucky to work on an issue that everyone can see themselves in

(13:28):
And a set of solutions that everyone can connect to. And it’s like, as an organizer, we’re trained to look for issues that are both broadly felt, widely felt, and also deeply felt. And this issue is gold from that standpoint. It’s like, man, you talk about care and it just goes right to the heart of hearts for people. And so there isn’t a room where you can enter and people don’t have deeply emotional care stories to share. And to be able to connect those stories with actual solutions that can address some of those pain points is such an amazing thing. And most of this country, if we’re to be honest, thinks about care as an individual personal responsibility and has very little expectation of our government or our systems to do anything to support. And so there’s just this enormous challenge and opportunity we have to bring people together, people across race, class, geography, I mean, literally it’s everyone who has a care story. I look for every opportunity possible to be in rooms where people have never really talked about care publicly, but know that there’s something broken instinctually. And so those are exactly the rooms that I try to be in.

(15:01):
Courtney: That makes so much sense. So let’s do a little case study, the phrase care as infrastructure. In terms of that phrase, was it something that came to you in the middle of the night? Is it like you’re around a conference table with your colleagues? How did you decide, this is the next phrase, we really need to embed in people’s brains and hearts so that they can understand this is not a personal thing, this is a infrastructure issue.

(15:30):
Ai-jen: Well, the first layer happened in 2015 in my book Age of Dignity, where I tried to draw the connection between the ability of our nation to build infrastructure like utilities where we can bring running water, electricity, and broadband to every home in this country. We can certainly bring care to every home in this country, and it is just as fundamental and essential to the functioning of society as those utilities and that level of infrastructure. And then when the pandemic hit, it was actually recognizing almost immediately that we were heading into the next great economic crisis crisis with the shutdown. And every single time we’ve had an economic crisis or recession, the first response is to invest in infrastructure because of the ways in which infrastructure investments are public investments that can be made immediately. And so I knew, and a set of us who were working on these policies knew that very quickly we would see Congress try to move on infrastructure as a part of how we rebuild out of the covid moment. And so a group of us just called the Zoom meeting where we were and still are in Zoom land, to basically talk about whether we should do a big push to frame care investments as infrastructure investments and try to get it into the infrastructure conversation as a part of our economic recovery. And so we did,

(17:22):
Courtney: Can I pause you real quick because you’ve said a couple of important things. Okay. So first you had all these existing relationships that you’d been building over years and years of collaboration, and then you had this historical analysis of thinking, okay, when crisis strikes governments do this infrastructure thing, and this is how they usually think about infrastructure, how do we leverage that? And then instead of being territorial about this idea of, okay, I Ai-jen Poo or us carrying across generations are going to be the people who say, here is infrastructure, we’re going to be known forevermore as the people who said this. And it was about that whole group of people saying, how do we have a collective unified message that we’re going to repeat over and over again?

Ai-jen: Right. Okay. And

(18:11):
We released a white paper called Care is Infrastructure, and it was 74 organizations who co-wrote somehow this document. And I will say that I think we were pretty successful in the policy narrative. I mean, I think most everyday people don’t think of care as infrastructure, but a lot of people who are making policy understand why we say that it is, and sometimes have started to embrace that narrative as well. And I’ll never forget the moment when Senator Casey from Pennsylvania made a floor speech in the Senate and he said, some people need a road or a bridge to get to work, and other people need childcare and other people need home care. And it was this light bulb that went off

(19:18):
Courtney: Amazing

(19:19):
Ai-jen: In the Senate and then on Twitter and in the world. And now lots of people are talking about it that way, which I think is just so powerful. True.

(19:31):
Courtney: I was thinking about you as a person and how you are one of the most successful movement leaders I know at talking about what you care about and getting other people to care about it. But you’re not like a razzle dazzle person. You’re not someone that I would assume loves to be in the spotlight. I mean, you seem very comfortable in the spotlight. You have done it beautifully and you will do it beautifully, but I just don’t see you as someone who is a spotlight attracted to the spotlight in a particular way. Can you talk a little bit about that, your personal style? Did you ever struggle feeling like, oh, I’m a little too quiet to be a big person in the spotlight, and how did you get through that and kind of find your way of being authentically yourself, but being seen a lot and heard a lot?

(20:20):
Ai-jen: Yeah, it’s so conflicted for me because I don’t like public speaking. I don’t like television, I don’t like being on camera. It really gives me a heart attack every time. I used to go to rallies and watch people on stage give these rousing emotional, passionate speeches, and I’d be like, oh my God, I could never do that. So intense, so scary, and I sow value and appreciate it. I’m in awe of people who just get on the mic and are so amazing and rash and bold and inspiring. And so it’s taken me a while to figure out my own voice.

(21:12):
And I’m a very social person. I love people so much. I love being around people, but that kind of performance aspect of it really stretches me out. And so, yeah, it’s been a learning journey and people like you really helped me along the way of becoming a better speaker and framing things and getting more comfortable. And so I’ve had a lot of support. I’ve had a lot of people pour into me, and that has helped. And the thing that I try to remember is being able to communicate our ideas and our vision and our dreams as a movement. It’s like we can be doing the best work, and if nobody knows, if we’re not able to bring people in and connect to people, then how do we ever achieve our goals? And so it’s, it feels like a real gift to be able to be of service. And the public performance part of it does really stress me out, to be honest.

(22:20):
Courtney: And does it stress you out less than it used to, or do you still really hate getting on a stage?

(22:27):
Ai-jen: It does stress me out differently because now I know how to prepare. I know the things that I need to do to increase the likelihood of not passing out in the middle of it. I know the things that I need now that I’m 50 years old to execute, but it’s definitely still very stressful.

(22:58):
Courtney: Yeah, I would never ever know that watching you move through the world, your stress is not evident, I will tell you. So whatever practices you’ve been cultivating, I think really work. Are they mostly preparation practices, just having a moment to be clear about who the audience is and what you’re trying to get across to them. Is any of it meditation or music or anything more granular that people might learn from?

(23:26):
Ai-jen: I always try to get a good night’s sleep before I have to speak. And I wake up really early, like 5:00 AM before a big speech, and I do yoga and meditation, and it’s like getting my blood flowing and clearing my head and breathing. And then, because that’s the thing that happens is I stop breathing and then I practice, practice, practice. So I just like, if it’s something where I’m scripted, I just read through it so I’m really comfortable with what I want to say. And if it’s a panel where I’m kind of more in the moment, I actually rehearse my lines, I think about what I want to say and practicing it. Yeah, I mean, it’s a ton of practice and preparation.

(24:28):
Courtney: What about writing? Does that come more easily to you?

(24:32):
Ai-jen: So I love to write, and I like writing speeches too. I find having to communicate my ideas in a compelling and concise way is a really good exercise. It helps me as a strategist. And so yeah, I really like writing speeches if we have rallies or if we have events. I do work on helping to script people, and I like doing that. But I think that it’s easier for me to just really work on and work through my own voice than it is to try to get into other people’s voices. And right now I’m working on another book, and it is really immersing myself in other people’s stories and in addition to my own. And that has been so fun to try to figure out how to really be, capture the genius of their voices and experiences and connecting them to this larger narrative.

(25:43):
Courtney: I’m just wondering if there are any more global ideas you have about how we should be thinking about impact when it comes to narrative change?

(25:51):
Ai-jen: The way I think about narrative strategy is I think other forms of strategy. It really is about assessing the landscape. And we have a practice that we’ve developed with Bridget Antoinette Evans, who I hope you’ll interview for this podcast at some point, who’s been a real kind of guide for me in this world. But just kind of doing an assessment of what are the narratives that are shaping how people think and feel around this particular issue? What are the dominant narratives? What of the narratives are negative and harmful that we have ingested and embodied? And if we ingested a different set of narratives, what might be possible and what are the narratives that we want to replace those toxic narratives with? And really having a kind of collective and honest assessment of the environment. And I would say what we’ve done is we’ve said right now, care is invisible and undervalued, and it’s seen as a personal individual responsibility or burden.

(27:15):
And it’s experienced as kind of a crisis of personal failures. And what we want to replace that with is a story about how valuable an essential care is. And we need to bring it to the foreground of our kind of cultural consciousness. And we need to embrace and embody care as a collective social priority and responsibility. And those are the shifts that we kind of landed on after two years of really assessing the landscape, learning, doing some experiments. And right now what we’re trying to do is through film and television and fashion and gaming and sports, actually try to create a 360 degree environment around the idea that care is fundamental and valuable, and that it should be all of our societal wide responsibility to support each other, to care for the people we love. And you can start to see how in these different arenas, news, media, television, film, there’s a momentum that has been building. And what we’re trying to get to is a 360 degree narrative environment where our narratives are starting to actually dominate. And you can measure that in different ways, like

(28:50):
Courtney: Tracking language, tracking plot lines, that kind of stuff.

(28:54):
Ai-jen: Exactly. Tracking social media responses to plot lines, tracking how many films at the film festivals have, care narratives, how many, there’s just so many ways of starting to track the momentum in the narrative environment. And I don’t think it’s an exact science, but it’s also not unknowable. And so

(29:21):
Courtney: I like that. That’s a great way to put it. It’s a more holistic and honest exploration of the way that culture changes. Quite mysterious. Let’s all agree around the table that story is sacred and mysterious, and we’re going to do all these incredible strategic things, and we will measure it in the ways we know how to measure it. But also it’s just in its own way, kind of like an ecosystem. It’s not something you, you know what I mean? You don’t chart every aspect of it as meaningful. It’s like it’s got its own life, right?

(29:54):
Ai-jen: That’s right. That’s right. And it is almost like Bridget and the people at the pop culture collaborative talk about narrative oceans. I haven’t. It’s like we’re swimming in oceans and we’re through these different interventions in the ocean, right? We’re trying to change the whole

(30:14):
Ecosystems

(30:15):
Of understanding.

(30:17):
Courtney: I love that. I’ve always wanted to learn to surf. Now I feel like I need to really learn and be surfing in the narrative ocean. I mean, I like swimming too, but there’s something cool about thinking about surfing the waves of narrative change. Can you surf? You can surf, I bet.

(30:33):
Ai-jen: No, and I’m actually not a great swimmer, so I know it’s

(30:38):
Courtney: Maybe we need to escape to a surf camp someday. That would be a real delight.

(30:43):
Ai-jen: I would love that.

(30:44):
Courtney: Thanks to Ai-jen for this awesome conversation. You can follow her and track the release of her new book edited by fresh speaker jamiaWilson@igenpoo.com, and follow her bass roster of organizations there too. There’s so much action we can all take to be a part of this care movement. And you know what, Ai-jen, even if we never end up surfing, I learned so much. If you learn something from listening to this episode, we want to hear about it. Send us an email at Green room@freshspeakers.com. And if you like what you heard today, please give us a rating and a review and tell a friend. The Green Room is an independent production of fresh speakers produced by me, Courtney Martin, along with Vanessa Valenti, Casey Molina and Alison Cook. Learn more about our work@freshspeakers.com. Ali Boman is our editor. The Green Room is possible. Thanks to the support of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, I am Courtney Martin. Thanks for listening